Hello/sorting out my feelings about Xenosaga

[Swampy_sahagin]

I've been digging for forums related to things I care about lately, and this one popped up somewhere. I'm very much into JRPGs (especially PS2 era and earlier) so if anybody has any forum recommendations to chat about those on I'd love to hear them.

Anyway, an introduction: I played Xenogears somewhere around 10-15 years ago, when I was just starting to explore the RPG genre (and emulation, without which I never would have had a chance to try so many of my now favorite games). I loved it, but I was probably too young to really pick up on some of the more nuanced stuff, so I've been meaning to replay it some time soon. After I finished Xenogears, I kind of forgot about Xenosaga until I eventually played the SRW Endless Frontier games and enjoyed KOS-MOS's character so much I felt like I had to check her games out.

Xenosaga 1's artstyle, particularly the character models, was jarring to me at first but I got used to it and it's probably my favorite of the three now, as cute as KOS-MOS and Momo are in 3. The gameplay could be a bit of a slog at times, being one of those JRPGs where you have to watch long-ish animations over and over again (not a stranger to this as a fan of Valkyrie Profile and other games of the era ) but I still enjoyed it more than the average JRPG battle system. What stuck out to me the most and made me want to play the later games was a combination of the excellent character writing and the story/themes. I usually don't care for sci-fi, but the spiritual and philosophical twist on it combined with the unique, memorable cast grabbed me.

After finishing 1, I heard about Pied Piper and read through the fan translation. Ziggy was (and still is) possibly my favorite male character in any game I've ever played, so I really wanted to get more of his backstory. It was fantastic, which I now understand owes much to having its script written by the same woman who played such a large part in what made Xenosaga 1 so great to me: Soraya Saga/Kaori Tanaka. At this point my love for the series was at its peak, and I was so excited to try Xenosaga Episode II... which I dropped after about 6 hours, and subsequently I didn't touch Xenosaga again for probably almost a decade. I did play the first Xenoblade Chronicles game during this period, though, and I absolutely loved it, even if it didn't feel like it had as much substance to it as the other Xeno games I'd played.

More recently, I was listening through some video game soundtracks and came across Xenosaga Ep II's. I'd played so little of the game itself that I didn't even realize the soundtrack was this good (awful combat theme and a few unfitting Hosoe tracks aside, at least). Kajiura's music in particular tricked me into thinking this game would blow me away if I let it. So earlier this year I decided to give Xenosaga another shot. I wasn't really about to replay through all of the PS2 version of Episode I just yet, so I played the DS compilation of I&II instead, stopping after getting to 2nd Miltia. DS Episode I goes by so insanely fast I actually didn't remember where Episode I ends and ran a little into the start of Episode II before I realized. I then watched a playthrough of the PS2 version of 1 to refresh my memory a little more before starting the PS2 version of 2, which I figured I would play before the DS version so I could better appreciate what I had heard it tried to fix.

Jesus Christ what a slog of a game. The combat might be the worst in any JRPG I've pushed myself all the way through. Each encounter takes so long, and not for a GOOD reason, but because you have to spend minutes building your meter up at the start of pretty much every single fight to do any worthwhile damage, while enemies get to take potshots at you for free. Said enemies are STRONG, too. I preferred the ES battles just because they were a break from the regular encounters. The pacing was also really bizarre, just how much of the game was "do a dungeon, return to the Elsa, repeat." I enjoyed the parts of the story centered around Jr and Momo, but even the best scenes just felt... off. I was playing in japanese, so I don't know if this applies to the dub as well, but I wouldn't be surprised if I heard that the voice actors didn't see the scenes they were recording for. The GS campaign thing seemed like a pain so I beat the game without touching it at all.

What really soured the experience for me, however, was when I learned that Tanaka had already written a script for XSII, and that the new team had discarded it, iirc telling her that she "won't be needed" or something to that effect. To me, she was such a huge part of what brought the cast to life. I think this is probably also why so many people hate Shion in episode II and III. I've seen people defend the way she acts in the later games as "realistic" but honestly, to me it struck me almost entirely as the new writer just not being able to write for that kind of character. Yes, Shion in Episode I was still a mess of PTSD and she could be cold and irritatingly evasive. But she was still a smart cookie and a very caring girl with a lot of drive. I just can't see the hysterical mess in II and III as anything but the result of the change in writer. In 1 she felt like a real human. In 2 and 3 she felt like a japanese man's stereotypical idea of what a young woman with issues would behave like. It just BUGS me. Thanks to that and her design change, I made it through all of Episode II and III without being able to mentally register her as "Shion", she was just this weird new protagonist that showed up out of nowhere.

After finishing Episode II on PS2, I resumed playing the DS compilation. I loved how they kept the character designs consistent with 1, including Shion, and also how much they changed and fleshed out the story. The combat system in the DS version might also be my favorite across the trilogy, it's tactical (though a bit on the easy side once you've leveled up some) and quite fast-paced. It also has a skill point system similar to XS1, where you can spend points (now universal) on learning new ethers, powering up those ethers, learning equippable skills and powering up your deathblows. I don't want to toot I&II DS's horn too much, because it definitely feels quite low-budget in terms of presentation. The character sprites are adorable and the portraits are great, but the soundtrack feels quite small and is 50/50 great tracks and "eh" tracks, where the "eh" tracks play the most. Still, it DID fix many of the problems I had with the PS2 version of II, and gave me another Xenosaga game where I can play as Shion, rather than Fake-Shion.

Continued...

 

[Swampy_sahagin]

Continued...

Before starting Episode III, I watched the japanese playthrough of Pied Piper, which gave me a lot more context than just reading the fan translation. I was thoroughly impressed again by how good the writing is, but also just how high quality it seems in general for a flip-phone game. The combat seems solid and the atmosphere is quite creepy and oppressive. It reminded me of what I liked about Xenosaga in the first place.

But man, I don't think a game has ever left me with feelings as hard to sort out as Episode III. On one hand, as a game it's quite good. The combat reminds me a lot of SMT Nocturne in its speediness, albeit without the press turn system. It did feel a bit mindless after a while, but it didn't irritate me like Episode II's combat. The music is great, Kajiura consistently knocks it out of the park. Some of the main cast had some very nice resolutions to their arcs like Allen, Jr, Momo, Albedo, KOS-MOS. Ziggy's felt a bit underdone. Jin and Margulis were handled quite well too despite how rushed it felt, and the fight vs. Margulis with a rearrange of the theme from Ep II was PEAK. The last few hours of the game in general were fantastic. But there's still a lot about 3 that just sits poorly with me.

The tone feels all over the place, especially earlier in the game, which I hear might be before they realized they really had to take the response to 2 to heart. If I had to point out one scene in particular to point out how "off" much of Episode III felt to me, I'd say the scene where Voyager just appears in the Elsa and starts causing trouble. It's just so... bizarre. Why are the 2 super robot sidequest joke characters part of the main cast now, and why do they so often show up in scenes meant to have weight to them earlier in the game? Ugh. I've already been over how I feel about II/III Shion and she dragged down most of the scenes she was in for me, as well.

The rest of what I disliked about 3 can pretty much just be explained by it being a rush to tie all the loose ends together, and is understandable. But there's just something about both II and III that makes me sad, knowing that what I consider to be half the soul of Xenosaga Episode I and Pied Piper - Tanaka and her writing - isn't present. I still think III's a good game, and I think it did a lot right, especially in the last few hours, but this in particular just sits poorly with me. Still, Xenosaga has become one of my favorite series, and has one of my favorite RPG casts of all time. Despite all my complaints I'm happy with how the series ended: with enough resolution to be satisfying and yet enough left open for the possibility of a continuation one day, as unlikely as it might be.

Since finishing Episode III I've started Xenoblade Chronicles X. It's a nice game to turn my brain off to while I still process my feelings on Xenosaga. I've never gotten the impression that Xenoblade really inherits much of the themes I enjoyed in Xenosaga, but I'm curious to see where the team went after the latter, and I know at least XBC1 had a great cast so I'm hoping the sequels do, too. I also want to read through Perfect Works before I replay Xenogears one day.

Anyway that was way more than I intended to write up, and I'm no writer myself. I'll probably lurk around this place from time to time. I'd love to see Pied Piper be recovered some day, and I see there's a thread about the hunt for it, so I'll be keeping an eye on that for sure.

 

[whyfish]

Hi, and welcome! <3 And thank you for sharing your reflections on the series. I kinda feel the same about Soraya Saga's/Kaori Tanaka's writing and some of the changes between Episode I and the later episodes. I still enjoyed the story in II and III (flaws and tone/pacing issues and all), but I'll always wonder what it could have been if the original writers had a chance to finish it as planned. In a weird way, I think that's part of why I keep coming back to Xenosaga after all these years--the potential it had, and the fact that in some ways it feels unfinished or unresolved.

(Ziggy's also a favorite of mine, and I'm lowkey obsessed with Pied Piper. It's been wonderful seeing all the preservation efforts that have come out of the fandom in recent years.)

 

[Swampy_sahagin]

Yeah, while I still love what we got overall, it's fun to think about what could have been. Even hearing about the original idea where it was gonna be something like KOS-MOS and chaos across different time periods, that fascinates me. It's rare to find an RPG with a bigger time scale like that (only game remotely close I can think of off the top of my head would be Venus & Braves, which takes place across ~100 years with an immortal vampire for the protagonist). I'd love to see some of that Xenoblade money go into doing something with the idea again, one day.

I'm a huge sucker for overly ambitious/creative projects. Too many of my favorite games are ones I basically need to follow with some kind of disclaimer when I'm recommending them to people.

 

[trexalfa]

What really soured the experience for me, however, was when I learned that Tanaka had already written a script for XSII, and that the new team had discarded it, iirc telling her that she "won't be needed" or something to that effect. To me, she was such a huge part of what brought the cast to life. I think this is probably also why so many people hate Shion in episode II and III. I've seen people defend the way she acts in the later games as "realistic" but honestly, to me it struck me almost entirely as the new writer just not being able to write for that kind of character. Yes, Shion in Episode I was still a mess of PTSD and she could be cold and irritatingly evasive. But she was still a smart cookie and a very caring girl with a lot of drive. I just can't see the hysterical mess in II and III as anything but the result of the change in writer. In 1 she felt like a real human. In 2 and 3 she felt like a japanese man's stereotypical idea of what a young woman with issues would behave like. It just BUGS me. Thanks to that and her design change, I made it through all of Episode II and III without being able to mentally register her as "Shion", she was just this weird new protagonist that showed up out of nowhere.

Though I mostly agree with every sentiment expressed here, I feel it is unfair to blame Shion's portrayal in further games on the fact they gave Tanaka the boot. Basically because I'm 100% sure Tanaka was not involved in writing Shion at all, Takahashi was. Tanaka's parts mostly dealt with Ziggy and the URTVs. Not minimizing her influence in the series at all, I know I was pissed when I learned they decided to get rid of Tanaka Kunihiko, Mitsuda Yasunori and her for literally no reason.

Shion's character arc is something I am pretty sure remains tolerably faithful to the original script, given most of it was already foreshadowed in the ODM and, if you read pieces of Enneagram related literature, such as Beatrice Chestnut's books, you'll see her portrayal in Episode III is pretty consistent with its description of the Type 7 in their darkest hour. The execution could have been A LOT better, but the overall concept doesn't seem to have changed at all.

Besides, the original Xenosaga scenario, which was more like a complete script rather than something fragmented for each game (it should be said, specially in regards to Episode II, that it is literally just the rest of Episode I and perhaps even less, given its length, turned into another game, and this is patently obvious from trailers), was from the start a Takahashi-Tanaka collaborative effort. It's not something Arai and Yonesaka could just drop, they could basically heavily rewrite it at most, specially given we have interviews with the new heads of the team stating that Yonesaka was mostly doing what a screenwriter does to adapt a novel to movie format (I should point out that Yonesaka also did show signs of not understanding the source material he was adapting in the very same interview). Tanaka wrote in her old FAQ some scenes which she wrote which remained within the final script, and also stated that Disc I of Episode II was tolerably faithful to the original script.

The rest of what I disliked about 3 can pretty much just be explained by it being a rush to tie all the loose ends together, and is understandable. But there's just something about both II and III that makes me sad, knowing that what I consider to be half the soul of Xenosaga Episode I and Pied Piper - Tanaka and her writing - isn't present. I still think III's a good game, and I think it did a lot right, especially in the last few hours, but this in particular just sits poorly with me. Still, Xenosaga has become one of my favorite series, and has one of my favorite RPG casts of all time. Despite all my complaints I'm happy with how the series ended: with enough resolution to be satisfying and yet enough left open for the possibility of a continuation one day, as unlikely as it might be.

The more I revist Episode III the more the fact that they didn't really tie all loose ends bothers me. It just feels like sure, they tied up all the strictly necessary bits so the story of the trilogy made sense, but there's a few things that just scream "this was meant to be explained in further games", and the thought of not ever getting those answers bugs me.

Like say, Maria's case. Though the guides do a good job at explaining what was revealed about her in the game, she STILL remains a very mysterious presence. The guides also make no effort to hide the fact this fact as well. Tanaka did say in an interview that they explicitly didn't reveal her full background in the Xenosaga series proper.

Anyway that was way more than I intended to write up, and I'm no writer myself. I'll probably lurk around this place from time to time. I'd love to see Pied Piper be recovered some day, and I see there's a thread about the hunt for it, so I'll be keeping an eye on that for sure.

Hard agree on this. I have only seen the translated script and some YouTube playthroughs that do not manage to cover it all. I always felt the game was missing something that's not properly conveyed by just reading the script for the main story events.

Yeah, while I still love what we got overall, it's fun to think about what could have been. Even hearing about the original idea where it was gonna be something like KOS-MOS and chaos across different time periods, that fascinates me. It's rare to find an RPG with a bigger time scale like that (only game remotely close I can think of off the top of my head would be Venus & Braves, which takes place across ~100 years with an immortal vampire for the protagonist). I'd love to see some of that Xenoblade money go into doing something with the idea again, one day.

I'm a huge sucker for overly ambitious/creative projects. Too many of my favorite games are ones I basically need to follow with some kind of disclaimer when I'm recommending them to people.

Yeah, chaos and KOS-MOS would have been present in the 3 main parts the series was originally divided in, but not necessarily in the same form.

People usually crap all over the supposed "overambitious" attitude Takahashi took when developing Xenogears and Xenosaga and claim that a fix was found in the form of the Xenoblade approach. Yet I very much miss the not dumbed down story and the ambition.

Even though I find that the "overambitious" accusations could have some sort of ground, looking at Xenosaga Episode I pre release interviews and events, including a conference in which Takahashi basically carried himself around like a novelist, or a movie auteur. Yet this was the same material that managed to hype me up the most.

 

[Swampy_sahagin]

Though I mostly agree with every sentiment expressed here, I feel it is unfair to blame Shion's portrayal in further games on the fact they gave Tanaka the boot. Basically because I'm 100% sure Tanaka was not involved in writing Shion at all, Takahashi was. Tanaka's parts mostly dealt with Ziggy and the URTVs. Not minimizing her influence in the series at all, I know I was pissed when I learned they decided to get rid of Tanaka Kunihiko, Mitsuda Yasunori and her for literally no reason.

Shion's character arc is something I am pretty sure remains tolerably faithful to the original script, given most of it was already foreshadowed in the ODM and, if you read pieces of Enneagram related literature, such as Beatrice Chestnut's books, you'll see her portrayal in Episode III is pretty consistent with its description of the Type 7 in their darkest hour. The execution could have been A LOT better, but the overall concept doesn't seem to have changed at all.

Besides, the original Xenosaga scenario, which was more like a complete script rather than something fragmented for each game (it should be said, specially in regards to Episode II, that it is literally just the rest of Episode I and perhaps even less, given its length, turned into another game, and this is patently obvious from trailers), was from the start a Takahashi-Tanaka collaborative effort. It's not something Arai and Yonesaka could just drop, they could basically heavily rewrite it at most, specially given we have interviews with the new heads of the team stating that Yonesaka was mostly doing what a screenwriter does to adapt a novel to movie format (I should point out that Yonesaka also did show signs of not understanding the source material he was adapting in the very same interview). Tanaka wrote in her old FAQ some scenes which she wrote which remained within the final script, and also stated that Disc I of Episode II was tolerably faithful to the original script.

Fair enough, I can't really agree or disagree without doing more research on the development process myself (if the information is even out there). I'm going off what little I do know combined with a gut feeling. Too much feels "off" to me for me to really feel like much of Episode II was faithful to whatever the original plan was. As for Shion, it's not what she does that I find most unbelievable, but the way it's presented. It just feels very stereotypical and teenager-like for lack of a better word. It doesn't feel like it fits the character that was established in 1. To me, that they took extra care to flesh out, contextualize and even change her behavior in I&II DS (coming to mind is the moment with Cecily and Cass, and also that it felt like she made more progress fixing her relationship with Jin than in the original PS2 version, which was jarring playing EP3 afterwards which is based on EP2 PS2 continuity) kind of reaffirms that they knew they screwed her character up in 2. Even if I had a heap of evidence to the contrary I would still have suspicions that something or someone in the dev process kind of took things in the wrong direction. Of course it could even be Takahashi. The most talented and passionate creators are often the ones that make the most spectacular flubs.

As for Xenoblade, yeah I agree. I liked XBC1 for what it was but to me it doesn't contain the things that made Xeno special to me, other than a very likeable main cast. XBCX I only made it a few hours in before I knew it wasn't for me. Still have to try XBC2 and 3. But in general I'll take an ambitious project that trips over itself over something that's a safer move but less interesting and memorable. And the rare ambitious projects that do feel like they achieved what they wanted to are even more special (Astlibra from last year was a fantastic game, as an example).

I also more recently see people like to bring up the Trails/Kiseki games as an example of something as ambitious as Xenosaga that managed to stick the landing, to which I can only respond with "ugh."

 

[trexalfa]

Fair enough, I can't really agree or disagree without doing more research on the development process myself (if the information is even out there). I'm going off what little I do know combined with a gut feeling. Too much feels "off" to me for me to really feel like much of Episode II was faithful to whatever the original plan was.

I'm just going off the knowledge we have of who was in charge of who. Tanaka was very much the main woman behind the URTV story arc (which includes everything to do with Jr, Albedo and even Yuriev, who is mentioned as far back as in the Episode I database) and Ziggy's own story. She later went on to say that KOS-MOS was Takahashi's brain daughter which, coupled with all the other evidence, just serves to solidify that Shion too must have been written by Takahashi. She did, apparently, write a few scenes related to Shion, but they were all mostly connected to the URTV plot.

However, it changes little. The fact is that the execution and dialogue post Episode I is fully Arai and Yonesaka's responsibility. Episode II in particular credited Takahashi as "Original Author" (much like how the writer of a novel being adapted to a Hollywood flick is the "original author", and they have shit for input), and from what we've been told, he was basically the "guy who offered advice if asked for it", but otherwise, no input. Tanaka wasn't credited at all. The most I know of Takahashi's influence over Episode II is that he chose the Nietzsche-related subtitle for it. As for the faithfulness, Tanaka wrote this in her FAQ:

Q11. Did your past contribution leave your mark on Episode II ? (01/30/05)
A11. Very fragmentarily. The scenes for analyzing Momo in the UMN administration center, memories of Sakura in Momo ENCEPHALON are tolerably faithful to the original.

# You can see Soraya's mark she left to the Episode II in:

* The conversation between Juli and Ziggy
* Momo Encephalon (In first version, It was not Juli's idea of destroying Momo's memory, but a subcommitteeman's. Juli hesitated.)
* The story about U.R.T.V. (with the exception of the chapters after Momo Encephalon and young Albedo's verbal abuse/violent acts against Sakura. They were added by Monolithsoft.)
* Albedo's short speech about the higher dimension. (His last words "You look like you lost your sweetheart ... anyway I hate you both" were added by Monolithsoft.)

# Soraya doesn't know what the story of the Episode III will be like. The new writer of the Episode III will write a new story in his style. (The chapters after Momo Encephalon and Disc 2 are his style.)
# The new team has the right to change or ignore Takahashi's plot outline.
# Soraya and Takahashi have been willing to help the new team if requested.
# Soraya can not comment on Takahashi's current status.
# Soraya wrote approximately half of of the script for the Episode I. She is responsible for:

* Ziggy and his family, Voyager, Momo, Mizrahis, Godwins, Yuriev, U.R.T.V.s, and the part of Shion during her stay in Durandal and the Kookai Foundation

# The first version of the script by Soraya and Takahashi was not religiously or politically sensitive. It had just harmless chapters like:

* Ziggy's past history (as seen in The Pied Piper)
* U.R.T.V.'s past history (as seen in the Episode II)
* Shion's past history with Febronia (removed)
* Jr's rapid growing (removed)
* Both juvenile and grown-up Jr. switching available in the battle (removed)
* The ghost of the old Miltia (removed)
* The death of Sakura (removed)
* Brief reunion with grown-up Citrine (removed)
* Gaignun vs Zohar emulators (removed)
* Jr.'s transformation/overdrive (removed)
* Jr. & Albedo vs U-DO vs KOS-MOS 3rd armament (removed)
* Shion's spiritual seeking/witnessing/awakening (removed)
* The truth about KOS-MOS (removed)
* Conversation between chaos and the red cloak man (removed)
* Conversation between Nephilim and the boy with the blocks (removed)
* An antimatter annihilation of Albedo (removed)

I must note that, in regards to deleted scenes, Tanaka is very pessimistic about whether they are going to be shown in future episodes. But the fact is that most of them do get shown in Episode III, rewritten as they might be (and I suspect it's only a matter of execution, not of lore changes). So she's not entirely reliable about this. Specially "the ghost of Old Miltia" sounds like the Encephalon showcasing the Miltian Conflict. A few of these haven't really been featured at all, but some of them were restored in the DS edition (though not entirely. Takahashi for example had to elaborate on Citrine's whereabouts before Yuriev's awakening in an interview because they didn't make the cut). Jr's adult form was entirely cut, sadly.

And about the cut, it must be said that the part of Xenosaga the actual trilogy we got, plus stuff from Pied Piper and A Missing Year, was supposed to be just two games: Episode I and Episode II. This was not in effect anymore since the actual PS2 Episode I actually covered just 20% of the script according to Takahashi himself. So scenes that featured in Episode III were, in the original plan, part of a hypothetical Episode II.

As for Shion, it's not what she does that I find most unbelievable, but the way it's presented. It just feels very stereotypical and teenager-like for lack of a better word. It doesn't feel like it fits the character that was established in 1. To me, that they took extra care to flesh out, contextualize and even change her behavior in I&II DS (coming to mind is the moment with Cecily and Cass, and also that it felt like she made more progress fixing her relationship with Jin than in the original PS2 version, which was jarring playing EP3 afterwards which is based on EP2 PS2 continuity) kind of reaffirms that they knew they screwed her character up in 2. Even if I had a heap of evidence to the contrary I would still have suspicions that something or someone in the dev process kind of took things in the wrong direction. Of course it could even be Takahashi. The most talented and passionate creators are often the ones that make the most spectacular flubs.

Takahashi's fault lies with the original plan alone. The most influence, story related of course, he had in Episode III was the fact that he apparently coordinated the Database... which contains a few nods to the DS edition here and there. And it's consistently about stuff that Episode II purposefully dumbed down because, apparently, they thought doing stuff like making Joachim Mizrahi more morally grey, rather than totally exonerating him from all fault, was too complicated for their fanbase to understand. While the PS2 game totally exonerates Mizrahi, the DS version does not, and the Episode III Database runs with the latter's portrayal. Just as an example.

What stops me from taking the DS version as a "full restoration" of the original plan is that I think a few weird stuff remains in it, as well as the fact that it contains some Takeda original things. However, the focus on Shion's PoV is one of the most interesting things from it, and I think it makes the perspective, at the very least, the one the original Episode I that contained the storyline from Episode II as well would have had.

As for Xenoblade, yeah I agree. I liked XBC1 for what it was but to me it doesn't contain the things that made Xeno special to me, other than a very likeable main cast. XBCX I only made it a few hours in before I knew it wasn't for me. Still have to try XBC2 and 3. But in general I'll take an ambitious project that trips over itself over something that's a safer move but less interesting and memorable. And the rare ambitious projects that do feel like they achieved what they wanted to are even more special (Astlibra from last year was a fantastic game, as an example).

I also more recently see people like to bring up the Trails/Kiseki games as an example of something as ambitious as Xenosaga that managed to stick the landing, to which I can only respond with "ugh."

Aside from the story angle, I've noticed that Takahashi has developed a certain aversion to developing games that aren't, at least 90%, self contained experiences. The Xenoblade Chronicles trilogy has plot and thematic connections, but their stories remain mostly independent to a large degree... which is just the opposite of the series based off the Perfect Works world (Xenogears and Xenosaga). One has to wonder if he'll run contrary to that aversion once again, but I have the feeling that he doesn't think too highly of his writing prowess anymore, if some declarations are to be believed.

Haven't played the Trails games at all, but I always try to remain wary of claims of ambition on par with Xenosaga... because I feel people who make such claims often do not understand the sheer scope and care (though that might also be my bias speaking) that went into the original plan xD.

 

[Valkyrie]

Hello !

 

[Swampy_sahagin]

Tanaka wrote this in her FAQ:

Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing. It kind of confirms some things I had a vague feeling about. It's a shame we didn't get to totally see Jr grow up (though I do have to wonder how that might "complicate" things with his relationship with MOMO, hah). Makes me think of Misha in Ar Tonelico 1.

Takahashi's fault lies with the original plan alone. The most influence, story related of course, he had in Episode III was the fact that he apparently coordinated the Database... which contains a few nods to the DS edition here and there. And it's consistently about stuff that Episode II purposefully dumbed down because, apparently, they thought doing stuff like making Joachim Mizrahi more morally grey, rather than totally exonerating him from all fault, was too complicated for their fanbase to understand. While the PS2 game totally exonerates Mizrahi, the DS version does not, and the Episode III Database runs with the latter's portrayal. Just as an example.

What stops me from taking the DS version as a "full restoration" of the original plan is that I think a few weird stuff remains in it, as well as the fact that it contains some Takeda original things. However, the focus on Shion's PoV is one of the most interesting things from it, and I think it makes the perspective, at the very least, the one the original Episode I that contained the storyline from Episode II as well would have had.

Yeah, I definitely don't see DS I&II as definitive or even really standing on its own since the presentation of the PS2 games is also a big part of Xenosaga's identity*. But it did do a great job patching up some of the more unsavory parts of II for me, for sure.

Aside from the story angle, I've noticed that Takahashi has developed a certain aversion to developing games that aren't, at least 90%, self contained experiences. The Xenoblade Chronicles trilogy has plot and thematic connections, but their stories remain mostly independent to a large degree... which is just the opposite of the series based off the Perfect Works world (Xenogears and Xenosaga). One has to wonder if he'll run contrary to that aversion once again, but I have the feeling that he doesn't think too highly of his writing prowess anymore, if some declarations are to be believed

I would love to see him get his ambition back one day, assuming he's lost it. And I'd love to see Tanaka return to writing for games as well. It sounds like she hasn't really touched the medium since XSII.

Haven't played the Trails games at all, but I always try to remain wary of claims of ambition on par with Xenosaga... because I feel people who make such claims often do not understand the sheer scope and care (though that might also be my bias speaking) that went into the original plan xD

To my understanding they only really compare them so much because Trails has a lot of characters people consider to be quite well written, and it's a long series spanning like 10+ games in a shared setting. I've only played the first one, FC (I tried the second but had an Episode II-like moment of disappointment with it that put me off the whole series) and I can see what they're getting at, but no, I really don't feel the same kind of ambition and creativity from those games. They're a lot more trope-y, and I say that even as a big JRPG fan who can very much enjoy trope-y things. Executing what the Trails series did doesn't strike me as even close to as difficult as what Xenosaga was trying to be. Even then, I've seen more than enough Trails fans who are also incredibly divided on the later Trails games compared to the earlier ones, as well.

The closest thing to Xeno level ambition (though still not really comparable) that I can think of off the top of my head would be the Ar Tonelico games, which had an incredibly detailed and unique setting complete with its own in-world language. Unfortunately Ar Tonelico also crashed and burned with 3 and everything that came after...

*That said, I would have absolutely no problem if Takahashi decided to take a more practical route and one day release more of the originally planned story in a low-budget format similar to the DS game or an indie-level project.

 

[trexalfa]

Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing. It kind of confirms some things I had a vague feeling about. It's a shame we didn't get to totally see Jr grow up (though I do have to wonder how that might "complicate" things with his relationship with MOMO, hah). Makes me think of Misha in Ar Tonelico 1.

Jr growing up kinda reminds me of Emeralda doing so in Xenogears, I wonder if it was meant as a callback originally.

Anyway, seeing as you played the DS version... I've been meaning to speak about the changes in backstory regarding Jr, Sakura and MOMO. Episode III apparently ran, in the Database specially, with the fact that Sakura's consciousness was indeed reincarnated by Mizrahi in MOMO's vessel, but it changed into another consciousness in a similar way Maria's consciousness transformed within KOS-MOS.

Yet the DS version kinda implies things aren't that simple, and dialogue didn't exactly suggest the same the Database did in Episode III either. At least the DS version clarifies some of the more "WTF" moments regarding Sakura appearing to Jr in certain moments, but it changes things to basically imply not only are Sakura and MOMO totally unrelated consciousness, but that Sakura was within Jr all along.

Takahashi and Takeda's interview about the game implies most extra stuff, including the newly included Sakura's death, is faithful to the original script, at least conceptually speaking (Takahashi let Takeda write at leisure as long as the 設定 weren't contradicted or murked up, apparently), but the ODM does straight up say Sakura died via suicide in front of her mother. I wonder if that's due to the true reasons for her death taking place within the UMN.

I would love to see him get his ambition back one day, assuming he's lost it. And I'd love to see Tanaka return to writing for games as well. It sounds like she hasn't really touched the medium since XSII.

He still seems to have a hidden desire to get back to the original worldview he created all those years ago, but his latest interviews hint at a very unsavory picture for me. Main points I've gathered are:

-"Moviegames" don't work.
-Takahashi feels like he's lost his sharpness due to age and having kids (the kind of sharpness the writing in Episode I shows).
-He is actively avoiding making games that are not independent experiences from each other.
-He derides his writing as "fake science fiction" because reality's shown him it hasn't captivated nor actively changed others, unlike the "true" sci-fi he used to read in his youth.

As for Tanaka, IIRC she was the main writer for Baten Kaitos, a JRPG that came out just in between Xenosaga Episode III and Xenoblade Chronicles. She was also a side writer in Xenoblade Chronicles 2, but her input was not really that great apparently. I really want to find that Final Fantasy VI doujin she wrote about the backstory for Edgar and Sabin that didn't make it to the game. Even back then, she implies she's a fan of writing massively detailed backstories.

To my understanding they only really compare them so much because Trails has a lot of characters people consider to be quite well written, and it's a long series spanning like 10+ games in a shared setting. I've only played the first one, FC (I tried the second but had an Episode II-like moment of disappointment with it that put me off the whole series) and I can see what they're getting at, but no, I really don't feel the same kind of ambition and creativity from those games. They're a lot more trope-y, and I say that even as a big JRPG fan who can very much enjoy trope-y things. Executing what the Trails series did doesn't strike me as even close to as difficult as what Xenosaga was trying to be. Even then, I've seen more than enough Trails fans who are also incredibly divided on the later Trails games compared to the earlier ones, as well.

The closest thing to Xeno level ambition (though still not really comparable) that I can think of off the top of my head would be the Ar Tonelico games, which had an incredibly detailed and unique setting complete with its own in-world language. Unfortunately Ar Tonelico also crashed and burned with 3 and everything that came after...

Sounds pretty nice, thanks for the info. Maybe I'll check them out, just to have something new on my plate.

Interviews before the release of Episode I though basically show the single greatest level of (over)ambition I've seen a game developer take. I'm still in awe over the fact that Mitsuda was meant to compose what was essentially a movie soundtrack, with little to no track repetition, and with each piece composed to fit the scene it features in. With elements that included live orchestra and choir.

*That said, I would have absolutely no problem if Takahashi decided to take a more practical route and one day release more of the originally planned story in a low-budget format similar to the DS game or an indie-level project.

Would buy this on release date.

 

[Swampy_sahagin]

Jr growing up kinda reminds me of Emeralda doing so in Xenogears, I wonder if it was meant as a callback originally.

Man, it's been so long since I played Xenogears that I almost totally forgot about Emeralda. Also, I hadn't heard about this "ODM" thing but looking it up it sounds like something I should check out. I'll say the DS take on Sakura's story definitely felt a lot more coherent to me, but the presentation in the PS2 version hit me harder (Sakura's theme is probably, across all 3 soundtracks, the track that starts playing in my head the most when I think about Xenosaga. That or Jin vs. Margulis). I kind of just dismissed the bits with Sakura showing up to Jr as "U.M.N. stuff" like how Febronia is able to appear at times. That said I'm just fresh off my first real playthrough of the series and have yet to really dig through the database or side material so maybe I'm just missing something there.

He still seems to have a hidden desire to get back to the original worldview he created all those years ago, but his latest interviews hint at a very unsavory picture for me. Main points I've gathered are:

-"Moviegames" don't work.
-Takahashi feels like he's lost his sharpness due to age and having kids (the kind of sharpness the writing in Episode I shows).
-He is actively avoiding making games that are not independent experiences from each other.
-He derides his writing as "fake science fiction" because reality's shown him it hasn't captivated nor actively changed others, unlike the "true" sci-fi he used to read in his youth.

It's a shame to hear he thinks that way now. It sounds like he's unaware of how much some people really did love Xenosaga. As for loss of sharpness with age, that sounds like more of an excuse than anything. I think a setting like that of the Xeno games would, if anything, benefit from the wisdom and struggle of an extra ~20 years of the writer growing as a person and exploring the worlds of philosophy and spirituality further. I think that's part of what does bug me about the Xenoblade games I've played, that thematically they feel like a regression from Xenosaga and Xenogears. It sounds like he denied himself the opportunity to grow following his disappointment with Saga, though I know it's more complex than that when you take into account modern game dev bureaucracy. The PS2 era was, for me, one of the last great periods of creativity in the medium, at least on that budget scale (there's still indies with that same kind of passion in them, from time to time).

As for Tanaka, IIRC she was the main writer for Baten Kaitos, a JRPG that came out just in between Xenosaga Episode III and Xenoblade Chronicles. She was also a side writer in Xenoblade Chronicles 2, but her input was not really that great apparently. I really want to find that Final Fantasy VI doujin she wrote about the backstory for Edgar and Sabin that didn't make it to the game. Even back then, she implies she's a fan of writing massively detailed backstories.

I've always heard about the Baten Kaitos games but never played them because the card stuff put me off. Maybe I should. I also hear she wrote for Soma Bringer, which sounds like a neat little game to me.

Sounds pretty nice, thanks for the info. Maybe I'll check them out, just to have something new on my plate.

You sound like you know japanese, but just in case I've got the wrong idea and you don't, if you're playing Ar Tonelico 2 in english at any point then get the fan retranslation patch. The original localization was a hell of a botchjob. I also want to add, related to how Shion was directed in Ep2 and 3, I think Ar Tonelico did quite a nice job with how it handled its "damaged" girls (Aurica in 1, and all 3 of the main girls in 2). AT2 really didn't pull any punches in the catfights that Luka and Cloche would have with each other.

 

[whyfish]

Also, I hadn't heard about this "ODM" thing but looking it up it sounds like something I should check out.

If you're interested, there's a partial text translation archived here, and scans in our media gallery. This thread also has a list of other documents and stuff related to the series.

It's a shame to hear he thinks that way now. It sounds like he's unaware of how much some people really did love Xenosaga. As for loss of sharpness with age, that sounds like more of an excuse than anything. I think a setting like that of the Xeno games would, if anything, benefit from the wisdom and struggle of an extra ~20 years of the writer growing as a person and exploring the worlds of philosophy and spirituality further. I think that's part of what does bug me about the Xenoblade games I've played, that thematically they feel like a regression from Xenosaga and Xenogears. It sounds like he denied himself the opportunity to grow following his disappointment with Saga, though I know it's more complex than that when you take into account modern game dev bureaucracy. The PS2 era was, for me, one of the last great periods of creativity in the medium, at least on that budget scale (there's still indies with that same kind of passion in them, from time to time).

Xenosaga was pretty life-changing for me and, I would imagine, for a lot of people here. I can understand why he might be discouraged that it didn't get more widespread recognition, but I also wish it were still possible and/or devs were more willing or at liberty to take those kinds of creative risks.

 

[Swampy_sahagin]

If you're interested, there's a partial text translation archived here, and scans in our media gallery. This thread also has a list of other documents and stuff related to the series.



Xenosaga was pretty life-changing for me and, I would imagine, for a lot of people here. I can understand why he might be discouraged that it didn't get more widespread recognition, but I also wish it were still possible and/or devs were more willing or at liberty to take those kinds of creative risks.

Thanks, I'll take a look at those scans! I want to dig through all the side stuff I can find before I replay Xenogears.

I too hope that one day the "industry" loses its current focus on pleasing investors and manipulating consumers over creating things real people want to create. The creative energy and artistry of people like Takahashi and Tanaka is something I find both enjoyable and inspiring.

 

[trexalfa]

Man, it's been so long since I played Xenogears that I almost totally forgot about Emeralda. Also, I hadn't heard about this "ODM" thing but looking it up it sounds like something I should check out. I'll say the DS take on Sakura's story definitely felt a lot more coherent to me, but the presentation in the PS2 version hit me harder (Sakura's theme is probably, across all 3 soundtracks, the track that starts playing in my head the most when I think about Xenosaga. That or Jin vs. Margulis). I kind of just dismissed the bits with Sakura showing up to Jr as "U.M.N. stuff" like how Febronia is able to appear at times. That said I'm just fresh off my first real playthrough of the series and have yet to really dig through the database or side material so maybe I'm just missing something there.

ODM stands for "Official Design Materials". It's basically Xenosaga Episode I's answer to Xenogears' Perfect Works book. It's incredibly detailed, and it doesn't only involve foreshadowing for the rest of the series, personality analysis on each character and additional worldbuilding that's not found anywhere else in the series, but also interviews and commentaries on social and spiritual issues Xenosaga deals with.

I am pretty damn sad the rest of the guides didn't follow this style. Speaking of Sakura's death in the DS version, Takahashi explicitly stated that, when looked through the lenses of what happened to Sakura, the actions of both Jr and Albedo should make more sense than they originally did. I miss readings of the games from that standpoint.

It's a shame to hear he thinks that way now. It sounds like he's unaware of how much some people really did love Xenosaga. As for loss of sharpness with age, that sounds like more of an excuse than anything. I think a setting like that of the Xeno games would, if anything, benefit from the wisdom and struggle of an extra ~20 years of the writer growing as a person and exploring the worlds of philosophy and spirituality further. I think that's part of what does bug me about the Xenoblade games I've played, that thematically they feel like a regression from Xenosaga and Xenogears. It sounds like he denied himself the opportunity to grow following his disappointment with Saga, though I know it's more complex than that when you take into account modern game dev bureaucracy. The PS2 era was, for me, one of the last great periods of creativity in the medium, at least on that budget scale (there's still indies with that same kind of passion in them, from time to time).

I share the same sentiments. Wasn't Xenoblade Chronicles at one point refered to as being "like a shounen manga" in terms of storyline? Because that almost checks out for me. You get people comparing these games to the older "Xeno" games a lot, but the more I look, the more superficial I see those connections are. And the most obvious, on the nose stuff (not getting into spoilers for further games into the series, but Xenoblade Chronicles 2's ending features a pretty on the nose recycled element from older games. There's also some... odd stuff in Future Redeemed).

From interviews both Takahashi and Tanaka have given to various media, the sentence "games aren't just something to be watched" sticks out like a sore thumb. Like, it's the main lesson they got from Monolith Soft's earlier days apparently. Takahashi even has a large interview speaking about story and gameplay being like "X Axis and Y Axis", and after setting up the analogy, he essentially vouches for balance in between the two, noting there was a point in the industry in which the story axis began to overtake the gameplay, and that it was something he was guilty of as well. Early interviews for Xenosaga Episode I had him stating that the game was designed in such a way that you could put all cutscenes together and watch the game as one huge drama, with minimal loses from skipping the gameplay portions. The design philosophy involved here is almost totally opposite, and let's be honest, that change is the source of Monolith Soft's current success, to the point most Xenogears videos have comment boxes filled with people who talk of almost nothing but Xenoblade.

Yet Takahashi has of course retained some writing quirks from his beginnings. Even though "Xeno" has become essentially his personal brand, he makes it so his newer games retain its original meaning: the clash of alien things (the characters and their different worldviews and ideologies) creating the drama of life, as well as these alien things eventually becoming one.

You sound like you know japanese, but just in case I've got the wrong idea and you don't, if you're playing Ar Tonelico 2 in english at any point then get the fan retranslation patch. The original localization was a hell of a botchjob. I also want to add, related to how Shion was directed in Ep2 and 3, I think Ar Tonelico did quite a nice job with how it handled its "damaged" girls (Aurica in 1, and all 3 of the main girls in 2). AT2 really didn't pull any punches in the catfights that Luka and Cloche would have with each other.

Yeah, I do know Japanese, which is a blessing in dealing with these kind of series. I'll keep all of that in mind, thanks.

 

[Swampy_sahagin]

I share the same sentiments. Wasn't Xenoblade Chronicles at one point refered to as being "like a shounen manga" in terms of storyline? Because that almost checks out for me. You get people comparing these games to the older "Xeno" games a lot, but the more I look, the more superficial I see those connections are. And the most obvious, on the nose stuff (not getting into spoilers for further games into the series, but Xenoblade Chronicles 2's ending features a pretty on the nose recycled element from older games. There's also some... odd stuff in Future Redeemed).

From interviews both Takahashi and Tanaka have given to various media, the sentence "games aren't just something to be watched" sticks out like a sore thumb. Like, it's the main lesson they got from Monolith Soft's earlier days apparently. Takahashi even has a large interview speaking about story and gameplay being like "X Axis and Y Axis", and after setting up the analogy, he essentially vouches for balance in between the two, noting there was a point in the industry in which the story axis began to overtake the gameplay, and that it was something he was guilty of as well. Early interviews for Xenosaga Episode I had him stating that the game was designed in such a way that you could put all cutscenes together and watch the game as one huge drama, with minimal loses from skipping the gameplay portions. The design philosophy involved here is almost totally opposite, and let's be honest, that change is the source of Monolith Soft's current success, to the point most Xenogears videos have comment boxes filled with people who talk of almost nothing but Xenoblade.

Yet Takahashi has of course retained some writing quirks from his beginnings. Even though "Xeno" has become essentially his personal brand, he makes it so his newer games retain its original meaning: the clash of alien things (the characters and their different worldviews and ideologies) creating the drama of life, as well as these alien things eventually becoming one.

I can't remember it being referred to like that, but I can say from what little of XBC2 I played, it definitely felt like it fit the bill. I think XBC1 felt more grounded and less "modern anime" to me thanks to the visual style and how much it felt like an adventure. The characters also felt a lot less cardboard than the later XBC games I tried. Melia best girl.

I want to like the other XBC games but they're just not really up my alley. Though I may end up playing more of XBCX regardless just because I really enjoy the combat in that one, and the world is quite cool to explore. Boy do I wish it had a music volume slider though, or even that there was a mod or cheat for it out there. Even the tracks I don't mind tend to drown out the rest of the game with their sheer volume, to say nothing of ONE TWO THREE FOUR and UNNHHH YEAHHH UNNHHHH YEAHHH. XBC2 in general just didn't really make me want to keep playing, and it sounds like 3 is more of the same so I'll pass on that for now.

Gameplay is good for getting you more immersed in the setting rather than just watching or reading something (why I play so many RPGs) but I felt like Saga gave me plenty of time to run around and get a feel for things/get attached to my party members. It never really bothered me how many cutscenes there were, and I never felt like they detracted from the game (compare to another game I played recently, Ys Monstrum Nox, where pointless and uninteresting dialogue frequently brings the incredibly fun gameplay to a screeching halt). Xenosaga just had an atmosphere that made it work.

My favorite Monolith Soft games that aren't Xeno are probably SRW Endless Frontier 1 and 2, the latter of which was one of the games that made me want to learn japanese since it was untranslated at the time. Yeah, the actual main plot in those games was pretty typical but the combat was a lot of fun and the characters all had strong and memorable personalities and designs. I think they hit a fine balance of dialogue to gameplay, as well.

Don't really feel like an open-world setting ala Xenoblade would work for a real Xeno continuation either. Unless it was the kind of "open" older JRPGs were where you just had a world map connecting the towns/dungeons that you could wander around on. I was also already tired of the open-world trend when it popped up in western gaming, by the time BOTW happened and japan jumped on the same bandwagon I was completely checked out.

To me, the old JRPG format I mentioned above with an overworld, towns and dungeons would be just fine for telling a Xeno story, like it was for Gears. Modern JRPGs have tried so hard to leave it behind but what they've offered as an alternative I've often found to be quite underwhelming, either in the story presentation or gameplay department. Sure, random encounters kind of stink, but we figured out symbol encounters over 20 years ago. Modern JRPG devs also seem terrified of the idea of using turn based combat anymore, totally ditching the concept instead of refining it, despite there being tonnes of fun turn based JRPGs offering more tactical depth and rewarding gameplay than most modern JRPG combat systems.

 

[trexalfa]

I can't remember it being referred to like that, but I can say from what little of XBC2 I played, it definitely felt like it fit the bill. I think XBC1 felt more grounded and less "modern anime" to me thanks to the visual style and how much it felt like an adventure. The characters also felt a lot less cardboard than the later XBC games I tried. Melia best girl.

For me, it really depends on who you ask, because I've found ambivalent opinions on this matter: people who think the story got better in the 2nd game and people who think it became worse (though there's consensus on the matter of Rex being unable to be anymore generic and Shulk styling all over him in terms of being a good protagonist).

I'll leave a spoiler with certain things in the 2nd game and in Future Redeemed that illustrate what I was talking about:

Spoiler: Xenoblade Chronicles 2

The game's ending stretch reveals an object called "the Gate" (translated as the Conduit in the English version of the game). It's basically what Klaus and his team were researching and what led to the events of the first and second games in the first place. Wonder if you'll find it familiar: it's a golden, glowing object with the form of a monolith, and it's essentially the catalyst for the more massive phenomena in the games. There's side material for the game that refers to it as "Magnetic Abnormal Matter", and game files, as well as art pieces, that refer to it as Zohar.

Thing is... it doesn't work much like its homologues in the PSX/PS2 era (which, to be fair, also don't work in the same way either), as it's basically a conduit into alternate universes, rather than a mysterious object that works as the connection point with the Upper Domain.

Spoiler: Future Redeemed

Far more surface level, but there's a few things... a scene showcases a radio with the Vector Industries logo stamped on it. What the radio announcer is saying is just background noise as far as the scene is concerned, as it includes an important conversation. Radio announcer basically mentions a good amount of references to past Xeno games outside of their original contexts. They mention Project Exodus (from Xenoblade Chronicles X), Philadelphia-class ships (the class the Eldridge belonged to in Xenogears) as well as a parliament member whose name is Dmitri Yuriev, though absolutely removed from his original context in Xenosaga. Dunno if I'm missing anything, but they amounted to little more than small references.

I want to like the other XBC games but they're just not really up my alley. Though I may end up playing more of XBCX regardless just because I really enjoy the combat in that one, and the world is quite cool to explore. Boy do I wish it had a music volume slider though, or even that there was a mod or cheat for it out there. Even the tracks I don't mind tend to drown out the rest of the game with their sheer volume, to say nothing of ONE TWO THREE FOUR and UNNHHH YEAHHH UNNHHHH YEAHHH. XBC2 in general just didn't really make me want to keep playing, and it sounds like 3 is more of the same so I'll pass on that for now.

Really a shame that Xenoblade Chronicles X is the game that hit it off the best amongst fans of the older games, and that it's going to be the one with that is least likely to get a continuation, given what we've already seen.

Gameplay is good for getting you more immersed in the setting rather than just watching or reading something (why I play so many RPGs) but I felt like Saga gave me plenty of time to run around and get a feel for things/get attached to my party members. It never really bothered me how many cutscenes there were, and I never felt like they detracted from the game (compare to another game I played recently, Ys Monstrum Nox, where pointless and uninteresting dialogue frequently brings the incredibly fun gameplay to a screeching halt). Xenosaga just had an atmosphere that made it work.

My favorite Monolith Soft games that aren't Xeno are probably SRW Endless Frontier 1 and 2, the latter of which was one of the games that made me want to learn japanese since it was untranslated at the time. Yeah, the actual main plot in those games was pretty typical but the combat was a lot of fun and the characters all had strong and memorable personalities and designs. I think they hit a fine balance of dialogue to gameplay, as well.

It strikes me as odd, but I feel this is something Monolith Soft apparently had figured out when they started. Basically, fan feedback from Xenogears back in the day apparently had shown them that the main strength games had as a storytelling medium was the fact that players weren't just entirely passive and could interact with the game's world. Takahashi was keen on creating a universe players would never want to leave, so that pretty much made games seem like the perfect medium for that vision to come to fruition.

His interview in the ODM, which was done after the release of Xenosaga Episode I though, has him state that he doesn't believe games are good storytelling vehicles because developers have to take detours in terms of making assets, towns and things like that. I think this came mostly as a reaction to the fact they couldn't finish the game, and that it wasn't such a big boom either.

Xenosaga Episode I's critics fell into many camps, but I want to highlight those who were mad the game didn't seem to be leading up to a scenario resembling Xenogears, and those who bitched about the fact that they paid for a game, not a movie (these resemble the criticisms Metal Gear Solid 4 got back in the day).

Don't really feel like an open-world setting ala Xenoblade would work for a real Xeno continuation either. Unless it was the kind of "open" older JRPGs were where you just had a world map connecting the towns/dungeons that you could wander around on. I was also already tired of the open-world trend when it popped up in western gaming, by the time BOTW happened and japan jumped on the same bandwagon I was completely checked out.

To me, the old JRPG format I mentioned above with an overworld, towns and dungeons would be just fine for telling a Xeno story, like it was for Gears. Modern JRPGs have tried so hard to leave it behind but what they've offered as an alternative I've often found to be quite underwhelming, either in the story presentation or gameplay department. Sure, random encounters kind of stink, but we figured out symbol encounters over 20 years ago. Modern JRPG devs also seem terrified of the idea of using turn based combat anymore, totally ditching the concept instead of refining it, despite there being tonnes of fun turn based JRPGs offering more tactical depth and rewarding gameplay than most modern JRPG combat systems.

I remember interviews from Monolith's staff (not from Takahashi, mind you) who apparently were thinking of becoming Japan's equivalent to Bethesda Softworks (you know, huge, sandbox like worlds... Dunno how positive it is that Bethesda of all companies is their example though). The nature of the Xenoblade series so far seems to be satisfying Takahashi's more "generic" (as opposed to highly specific) ambition of creating huge worlds, instead of channeling that into the more specific space opera type of universe featured in his older games.

This reminds me that Monolith were assistant devs in both Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom. Nintendo's treating them really well, for what that's worth.

 

[Swampy_sahagin]

Spoiler: Xenoblade Chronicles 2

The game's ending stretch reveals an object called "the Gate" (translated as the Conduit in the English version of the game). It's basically what Klaus and his team were researching and what led to the events of the first and second games in the first place. Wonder if you'll find it familiar: it's a golden, glowing object with the form of a monolith, and it's essentially the catalyst for the more massive phenomena in the games. There's side material for the game that refers to it as "Magnetic Abnormal Matter", and game files, as well as art pieces, that refer to it as Zohar.

Thing is... it doesn't work much like its homologues in the PSX/PS2 era (which, to be fair, also don't work in the same way either), as it's basically a conduit into alternate universes, rather than a mysterious object that works as the connection point with the Upper Domain.

Spoiler: Future Redeemed

Far more surface level, but there's a few things... a scene showcases a radio with the Vector Industries logo stamped on it. What the radio announcer is saying is just background noise as far as the scene is concerned, as it includes an important conversation. Radio announcer basically mentions a good amount of references to past Xeno games outside of their original contexts. They mention Project Exodus (from Xenoblade Chronicles X), Philadelphia-class ships (the class the Eldridge belonged to in Xenogears) as well as a parliament member whose name is Dmitri Yuriev, though absolutely removed from his original context in Xenosaga. Dunno if I'm missing anything, but they amounted to little more than small references.

That sounds as vague and non-committal as I'd expect. Not that I'm complaining, I don't really want the Blade games to be connected to the other Xeno games anyway. Blade has so little of the vision and spirit of the other games that it'd feel forced and bizarre to me.

Really a shame that Xenoblade Chronicles X is the game that hit it off the best amongst fans of the older games, and that it's going to be the one with that is least likely to get a continuation, given what we've already seen.

To me, it's the one I feel the most ambition and creativity from. Though not from the story or characters this time. And I should add I had a lot of trouble playing it at 30fps, versus with the 60fps patch on cemu. I think 30fps gives me motion sickness these days, I just can't concentrate or focus with it, what I'm looking at ingame just doesn't "register". But with that patch? Hoo boy, it's a lot of fun.

His interview in the ODM, which was done after the release of Xenosaga Episode I though, has him state that he doesn't believe games are good storytelling vehicles because developers have to take detours in terms of making assets, towns and things like that. I think this came mostly as a reaction to the fact they couldn't finish the game, and that it wasn't such a big boom either.

I feel like that was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction from him at the time, and it's a shame he (presumably) kept thinking that way. I get why he might have felt that way considering how much of a bottleneck funding and devtime seemed to have been to both Gears and Saga. But there are ways to get around that rather than just giving up on it altogether. Part of the artistry and creativity involved in making a good game is knowing how to work within those limits. That strikes me as something Takahashi had a lot of trouble with.

and those who bitched about the fact that they paid for a game, not a movie

Whenever I've stumbled across Xenoblade fans talking about the other Xeno games, that's what I see the most, too. Lots of complaining about too many cutscenes or the games being too slow for them in one way or another.

I remember interviews from Monolith's staff (not from Takahashi, mind you) who apparently were thinking of becoming Japan's equivalent to Bethesda Softworks (you know, huge, sandbox like worlds... Dunno how positive it is that Bethesda of all companies is their example though). The nature of the Xenoblade series so far seems to be satisfying Takahashi's more "generic" (as opposed to highly specific) ambition of creating huge worlds, instead of channeling that into the more specific space opera type of universe featured in his older games.

This reminds me that Monolith were assistant devs in both Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom. Nintendo's treating them really well, for what that's worth

I can only hope the Blade games were an "extreme" for him in the same way Xenosaga might have been, and that he can find a better balance if he continues to work on games. Even people who love Xenoblade (I suppose I count, considering how much I loved 1) seem quite divided over the later games. The Bethesda comparison is funnily quite fitting in more ways than one. Morrowind to Skyrim isn't too far off Gears/Saga to Blade...

 

[trexalfa]

That sounds as vague and non-committal as I'd expect. Not that I'm complaining, I don't really want the Blade games to be connected to the other Xeno games anyway. Blade has so little of the vision and spirit of the other games that it'd feel forced and bizarre to me.

The fact that there are people who have the very opposite reading of those references is something that keeps puzzling me to this day. The presentation in Future Redeemed is basically telling you all that's in the past. And the element I mentioned from the 2nd game doesn't go beyond recycling a known element into a completely new context that's not even philo-genetically related. Hell,
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Spoiler: Future Redeemed

Last shot features something falling to Earth and there's a good number of people saying it's KOS-MOS, for some reason.

And that's without speaking of people who say that what is shown at the end of Xenoblade Chronicles is how Lost Jerusalem became, well, lost, because apparently it remained a mystery even within Xenosaga's bounds (which is false as far back as Episode I, since the ODM spells out most surface details about the issue, without pointing at the prime mover though).

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To me, it's the one I feel the most ambition and creativity from. Though not from the story or characters this time. And I should add I had a lot of trouble playing it at 30fps, versus with the 60fps patch on cemu. I think 30fps gives me motion sickness these days, I just can't concentrate or focus with it, what I'm looking at ingame just doesn't "register". But with that patch? Hoo boy, it's a lot of fun.

Was planning on giving it a shot on cemu actually, I just have to solve some issues with my hard drive for it to work like a charm. Seems like something entirely up my alley, at least gameplay wise.

Regardless, it's obvious it didn't get as popular as the other Xenoblade games.

I feel like that was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction from him at the time, and it's a shame he (presumably) kept thinking that way. I get why he might have felt that way considering how much of a bottleneck funding and devtime seemed to have been to both Gears and Saga. But there are ways to get around that rather than just giving up on it altogether. Part of the artistry and creativity involved in making a good game is knowing how to work within those limits. That strikes me as something Takahashi had a lot of trouble with.


Whenever I've stumbled across Xenoblade fans talking about the other Xeno games, that's what I see the most, too. Lots of complaining about too many cutscenes or the games being too slow for them in one way or another.

Xenosaga is something Takahashi is clearly still bitter over, moreso than Xenogears I'd say. For a game that was initially advertised as a legit "Final Fantasy killer" for Namco, they clearly didn't shower it with lots of love, despite initially leaving space for Monolith to work their magic into the game. It's very likely Takahashi just gave up on carrying out the project to completion when he realized the state Episode I had been released in.

It bugs me, honestly. The cutscenes in Xenosaga Episode I have a unique atmosphere to them, oppresive and even creepy at time. Like the coldness of outer space is reaching out to you. And this had lots to do with Takahashi's own direction, which shows even as far back as Xenogears, a game that didn't use the same kind of technology its offspring series did. But I suppose that this was not what most gamers were used to back in the day, and I think it still isn't.

I can only hope the Blade games were an "extreme" for him in the same way Xenosaga might have been, and that he can find a better balance if he continues to work on games. Even people who love Xenoblade (I suppose I count, considering how much I loved 1) seem quite divided over the later games. The Bethesda comparison is funnily quite fitting in more ways than one. Morrowind to Skyrim isn't too far off Gears/Saga to Blade...

I... hadn't really thought of it that way. If taken from a developer's angle, I'd have to wonder if taking a company that releases broken games like crazy as a role model is anything positive, even if their open worlds have become paradigmatic.

From the standpoint of writing though, there's been lots of fans who feel the series has been dumbed down a ton since Morrowind, myself included. The world featured in that one game was truly a wonder, felt far more alien than your typical fantasy fare and had lots of interesting philosophical elements (to this day there's still study groups held around The 36 Lessons of Vivec, and it doesn't help Michael Kirkbride won't ever spill the beans outright).

 

[Swampy_sahagin]

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Spoiler: Future Redeemed

Last shot features something falling to Earth and there's a good number of people saying it's KOS-MOS, for some reason.

Yeah, I've heard about that. But it's hard for me to imagine considering how detached Xenoblade has felt from the other games. It's like people trying to link Armored Core and Dark Souls by pointing at stuff like the Moonlight Blade being in both. I am curious to see what comes next however, even if my hopes are quite low.

Was planning on giving it a shot on cemu actually, I just have to solve some issues with my hard drive for it to work like a charm. Seems like something entirely up my alley, at least gameplay wise.

Definitely recommend it. Despite my initial "eh" impression I keep getting the urge to come back. Make sure you get the brightness fix, too.

It bugs me, honestly. The cutscenes in Xenosaga Episode I have a unique atmosphere to them, oppresive and even creepy at time. Like the coldness of outer space is reaching out to you. And this had lots to do with Takahashi's own direction, which shows even as far back as Xenogears, a game that didn't use the same kind of technology its offspring series did. But I suppose that this was not what most gamers were used to back in the day, and I think it still isn't.

I get what you mean. The visuals themselves have this real sterile plasticky feel to them (in terms of environments) which kind of reminds me of stuff like System Shock 2. I've seen people complain about the lack of music outside of battles but personally I think it added a lot to 1's atmosphere. XS2 and 3 had some great dungeon tracks (I know people are divided on Hosoe, but c'mon, how can you not like stuff like the Old Miltia music?) but 1 had a certain "realness" to it. I enjoy it the same way I enjoy the lack of music in the Souls games I've played, though to Xenosaga's credit I also feel it generally has better ambiance than those. I still remember the fan whirr and tech sounds background noise that plays when you're onboard the various ships in the game.

Semi-related, 1's KOS-MOS has kind of ended up being my favorite because the odd artstyle really makes her look like a cold, creepy android.

I... hadn't really thought of it that way. If taken from a developer's angle, I'd have to wonder if taking a company that releases broken games like crazy as a role model is anything positive, even if their open worlds have become paradigmatic.

From the standpoint of writing though, there's been lots of fans who feel the series has been dumbed down a ton since Morrowind, myself included. The world featured in that one game was truly a wonder, felt far more alien than your typical fantasy fare and had lots of interesting philosophical elements (to this day there's still study groups held around The 36 Lessons of Vivec, and it doesn't help Michael Kirkbride won't ever spill the beans outright).

I don't know if it's accurate, but I get the impression they're not as bothered by bugs over there so long as they're not gamebreaking. I know GUST has a hell of a reputation for releasing buggy games and their fans just put up with it. Then again, so do Bethesda fans.

Agreed on Elder Scrolls, though I also feel like WRPG writing has gotten a bit... odd in general these days. I'm due to replay Morrowind sometime. I never did play the expansion packs.

 

[trexalfa]

Yeah, I've heard about that. But it's hard for me to imagine considering how detached Xenoblade has felt from the other games. It's like people trying to link Armored Core and Dark Souls by pointing at stuff like the Moonlight Blade being in both. I am curious to see what comes next however, even if my hopes are quite low.

I'm in basically the same boat, with perhaps the added feeling of annoyance that it seems the only way the older games might matter is through Xenoblade rather than by standing on their own two feet. But hey, new generations, new stuff to play with, I guess.

I get what you mean. The visuals themselves have this real sterile plasticky feel to them (in terms of environments) which kind of reminds me of stuff like System Shock 2. I've seen people complain about the lack of music outside of battles but personally I think it added a lot to 1's atmosphere. XS2 and 3 had some great dungeon tracks (I know people are divided on Hosoe, but c'mon, how can you not like stuff like the Old Miltia music?) but 1 had a certain "realness" to it. I enjoy it the same way I enjoy the lack of music in the Souls games I've played, though to Xenosaga's credit I also feel it generally has better ambiance than those. I still remember the fan whirr and tech sounds background noise that plays when you're onboard the various ships in the game.

Semi-related, 1's KOS-MOS has kind of ended up being my favorite because the odd artstyle really makes her look like a cold, creepy android.

Hosoe is, honestly, just badly suited for Xenosaga. I've played other stuff that has featured his music like, say, the Zero Escape series, and his music does a really good job at enhancing that atmosphere. It's just that Kajiura was a better fit for Xenosaga as a whole. I do think Mitsuda was the series' sound, but without Kajiura we wouldn't have gotten quite a ton of outright bangers out of this series. Takahashi said once that there's inspiration from existing movies, and he's a fan of Russian cinema... I wonder if the atmosphere from Tarkovsky's Solaris might have been an influence? The feel outer space gives there is quite similar and, come on, we already know he's watched that movie 100% due to Xenogears.

Regarding Episode I's music, that's a game you notice a heavy focus on cutscene music as opposed to gameplay related music. Just a single battle theme, no boss theme, and a single final boss theme for a boss that wasn't planned as the final boss to begin with (and hell, Pistis Sophia was outright removed in the DS version altogether, so I wonder if it was meant to be that way in the original scenario). The music was scored to the scenes that it plays in. You can just see what Takahashi's priorities were for Xenosaga in the beginning here.

Also, regarding KOS-MOS' design... an interview with Takahashi appeared just last year that revealed something really interesting about her. Apparently, Takahashi originally planned KOS-MOS' design direction to include making her similar to Bellmer dolls:

In the end, only the KOS-MOS Archetype ended following this design direction, but it was what Takahashi originally planned all versions to be like. Incidentally, the Archetype is Takahashi's KOS-MOS' favourite version (he's always thought of her as a vessel for Maria, he says. And there's no reason for the vessel to look so human-like). However, he thought he had to make compromises to appeal to the fans (that is, a certain kind of fan, Takahashi explicitly went with a design that was currently popular market-wise), so he kinda just handed Mugitani some pictures of some of one of his favorite porn actress and requested he draw a robo girl in a bondage outfit. Takahashi says that he learned to compromise on his own desires (that is, the Bellmer Doll look) thanks to this, given KOS-MOS became a hit character.

The Archetype incidentally is the one KOS-MOS look that gives off the most "eldritch", monstrous and alien feeling out of all of the frames. And it does somehow remind of the alien, incomprehensible air of otherworldly-ness that also floated around Deus in Xenogears.

Speaking of the test frame being creepy, her spontaneous awakening on the Woglinde remains one of my favourite scenes in the whole trilogy.

Agreed on Elder Scrolls, though I also feel like WRPG writing has gotten a bit... odd in general these days. I'm due to replay Morrowind sometime. I never did play the expansion packs.

You should at least play Tribunal, given it serves to complete the main story with some points that needed closure. I've been basically sorta "studying" the lore of The Elder Scrolls since 2012 or so, in an on and off basis. I can say that it's probably the most potentially unique WRPG series in the market... in the not all that capable hands of Todd Howard and crew. Todd Howard is also the main culprit of the writing being dumbed down since Oblivion, starting with the dumb Cyrodiil retcon (also, go figure, Jackson's Lord of the Rings movies were the big hit when Oblivion was about to come out).