Cherenkov

[hknk]

Spoilers

I recently started another playthrough of Xenosaga and Cherenkov got my attention. We know that the threat of the universe in Xenosaga is related to the rejection of the UMN by consciousnesses. But when Cherenkov dies and accepts his death he says that he likes it specifically because he is the only one there. Is it possible that this is an actual change the plot underwent?

If we interpret his gnosis-state to be the rejection of something, whereas his beach-state is the acceptance of something ... then maybe we can determine what this change may have been. We also know that Cherenkov was constantly searching for approval and attention. But in the end he accepts being alone. Hmmm ...

I'm not sure. What do you think?

[A.C]

While on the beach he has still not joined the collective. That's why he reflects one final time how much he likes being alone before saying "that too will eventually fade away" or something. I don't think the plot changed in that respect. Also, he wanted to leave behind a legacy, not necessarily searching for approval and attention. He also admits that he rejected the world, not the other way around.

[stitchedmoon]

^ That's kind of what I thought, too. Here's what the Perfect Guide has to say re: the Commander's vacation to monochrome-land:

The ash-colored shore where Shion happened to meet with Mizrahi and Cherenkov as he was dying. This is the visual image of the imaginary domain that Shion perceived. In other words, it is what a consciousness visualizes when its real-domain body has perished and it is being pulled into the Collective Unconscious. This image differs according to cultural background and experience of the perceiver. Specifically, it becomes bound to a real image of a place that is entirely different depending on the subject who perceives it.

As A.C said, I think maybe he was just experiencing his last moments as a separate/individual consciousness before returning to the collective.

[hknk]

Ahh hmm that makes sense. But what about the Zohar? There are waves that go into his body before he becomes Gnosis. They appear to be Udo waves (pink color) and the game takes note of their unknown origin. It's after this that he becomes Gnosis.

What does this mean?

[A.C]

My first impression was that those were souls of people who had died on Ariadne, specifically his wife and the girl he had killed. I though that's why he shouts "You were the ones that rejected me, so why are you bothering me now?"

This was before I knew anything about U-DO (before Ep.2 and 3 had even been released) so it seems strange that they are pink in hindsight. Honestly, I don't know what to make of it.

[hknk]

I initially thought that they were just the souls as well ... But watching it again, it seems like the pink rays aren't coming from the outside, but from the Zohar. I mean it - seems - that way to me. If not, The Zohar at least seems to be acting up during the scene.

[katimus_prime]

Jeezus, I can't believe I missed this thread.
Even though I'm probably the resident Cherenkov Expert, I can't really say where I thought those pink things were other than the souls of the people on Ariadne. Basically, when the Zohar Link Experiment was performed, the entire planet, through the use of the emulator, was forced out of normal space and into the imaginary number plane. I didn't think of it before, but maybe, even though those souls were forced there, it also counts as a mass of rejected consciousness(es?) that was working to speed up the collapse of the upper domain? If so, then, why would uh, Heinlein, allow Margulis to lead an experiment like that to be conducted? Possibly to move chaos, or to hasten Maria's awakening?

I'm also in the school of thought that Cherenkov's beach was a symbol of his final rejection of the collected consciousness, since he is there all by himself, not joined with anyone else who had accepted their fate, or even other post-gnosis souls. Given the mass of people like Cherenkov rejecting uh, communal heaven (?), the amount of energy needed to maintain seperate end-domains such as the beach for each person who rejects the collective might tax the upper domain, like a computer running too many programs? This is all speculation, though, because Shion and Joachim Mizrahi (and Maria) all appear on an identical beach in XS3.

[noctisheart]

^ Maybe people with an extremely powerful consciousness are able to reject the higher domain to a certain degree, even normal people like Cherenkov.

[katimus_prime]

^ Hrm, I'd argue that Cherenkov is hardly normal, but he's not super-shiny enough to have an anima relic or anything. I recall Margulis going on about him being special in some fashion. Plus, like, killing billions of people by accident (and probably hundreds upon improper provocation) would probably mark him down as a really big target for supernatural karma-backlash.

[Xel]

Don't ask me to cite my sources on this because I don't remember anymore, but I feel like I once heard someone observe something interesting about the Gnosis in keeping with some Gnostic belief that there are three types of people in the world--those who lack the, idk, spiritual integrity needed to transcend themselves (i.e., those who turn to salt and shatter), those who are worthy of transcendence but whose spirits are somehow tainted or otherwise unready (i.e., those who gnosify), and those who are worthy and able (i.e., people with "shining wills"--people like Shion, who was touched by a Gnosis but survived).

Point of all this being that I sort of see Cherenkov as belonging to that intermediate category, where he had the potential for his will to shine, but he just couldn't quite overcome the cards he was dealt in the same way as, say, Albedo did.